Here below I talk with Paul Thompson about concerns involved in using magic in fiction. Might there be a legit concern about romanticizing activity that is evil and harmful in the real world? Must magic in fiction entail that side-effect, or can it be different enough that it doesn't go there? This is just a bit of my broader conversation with the author of a fun young adult trilogy on The Nutcracker. Get the whole thing along with my eletter at penjams.com/thompson.
Paul Thompson: The gateway to witchcraft is everywhere. Um. And solely picking out books that deal with magic and magical systems, I think is just a lazy argument, a lazy way out. And I still have not heard any well thought-out arguments for. Just bar none. Getting rid of magic in fiction.
Penjammin: Yeah. Definitely not. I do think perhaps there is a concern about romanticizing things. Someone who says it sounds cool. They may never consider witchcraft until they'd thought about it more often because it was in their their thought life now. But that doesn't mean that it has to be like- you don't get turned on to witchcraft from reading Tolkien or Lewis because the ones who are doing witchcraft are the evil ones. And Aslan uses magic. But often, you know, they talk about the old magic that created the world. It's different in kind. And so, um, so there's something to that, to all that. It's definitely not a simple matter of just saying, hey, [there’s] magic in it, so burn it, you know?
Paul Thompson: Right, right. And and much of it is, you know, what is the purpose of the magic in Tolkien's world. You know, it's actually Gandalf who uses the most magic. He's a good guy. Um, there's a certain, you know, undertone of magic. And Tolkien was less about spells and flashes of fire from the fingertips, although he certainly did use that. Um, it was less about that and more about the purpose of it, the power of it. Um, so, yes, like anything else, magic is a tool. And it can be used for good or for bad. And you certainly don't want to romanticize bad behavior in the same way you don't want to romanticize, you know, a lot of other bad behaviors, magic aside. I think magic fits in the same place as you would say, sexual proclivities where, you know, you just you don't want to romanticize it.
Penjammin: Right. And… I think I know what your answer is, but just to be thorough, um, when you talk about magic for purpose, is that what defines good or bad? [such that, say, you] have an idea of, like, a “white” magic where it's: “Hey, I'm casting spells on somebody, but it's for their protection or something like that, so it's okay!” …
Paul Thompson: So yes, I've read [00:15:00] books where you have white magic. Dark magic. Um, I mean, I grew up in the 80s. It was, you know, The Never Ending Story. There was black magic and there was white magic, and and, you know, and that was just that was a genre. I don't think that there was any more right or wrong with that than anything else. My personal, my personal enjoyment for the world of magic is that magic exists. It's there. Perhaps- like in the world of The Nutcracker, some people can utilize magic, some people cannot. There are very few who can. Um, and the majority of people just don't know about it. It doesn't really affect their day to day. And so for the people that can use magic, it really is just another form of power. You know, it's the difference of the Rock wrestling kindergartners. You know, it's wrestling, but he's obviously got an advantage on them. Um, and so they would deal with the same moral decisions that any of us would deal with. They are just using a different tool, you know, a more fantastical tool.
Penjammin: It's an ability to steward, one might say.
Paul Thompson: Yes. Right. Yeah. No, that's a great way to put it.
Penjammin: And so, I mean, I think that's also like in Tolkien, that's one thing I liked about the story was that it was a natural ability. Like the kid could just turn off and on to see the magic. I won't say too much about it, but to see the magical world and to utilize it, he could focus on it or not. It's the natural ability that he could manipulate something with. And so, in a sense, you might see, like with Gandalf or the angels (and, you know, the, the Maiar were kind of like lower, you might say, analogous to angels), um, they have different abilities than humans do, but it doesn't make it necessarily magic. It's just what they do. So.
Paul Thompson: Exactly.
Penjammin: Yeah. So and, um, and maybe you call it magic. Maybe that's just because of definitional quibbles.
So, um, but I've enjoyed this and want to hear more about the system of the magic, how the magic works in this world because it's really interesting. I enjoyed watching the main character learn about it. Actually, can we get into it a little bit before we go on? Because I really care more about that than the other questions. I want to get to those too, but this is interesting to me.
Get the whole discussion along with my eletter at penjams.com/thompson.